The kind of stuff your grandmother never told you about

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Dan Tonkin

Monday 02 Jun, 08

Dan is art director for gaming company Iron Monkey. He attributes a lot of his success to his work ethic and his determination to become the best of the best. Read his interview to find out how to make it in the games industry, where atari and comic-book fans come into their element.

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Way Back
Career Development
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Blurb

Name

Dan Tonkin

Organisation/business/company

Iron Monkey Studios

Position/title

Art Director/ Business Co-Owner

Full time/part time

Full Time

Introductory Excerpt

Subject your work to the most severe criticism possible and the highest standards, and don't ever be satisfied just because you think it's good but look at the world and the industry standard and measure yourself against that, not just the other people you work with or what you've done in the past. Don't say "well it's better than the last thing I did." That's not enough. Is it better than...what they are doing at Pixar? That's where you set your standards.

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Way Back

Where did you grow up?

I was born in Adelaide, but I grew up in Glen Iris, in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. Went to a local primary school, went to a state high school: no private schooling for me. So I guess I had a typical middle class background.

What did you want to be when you were little?

I think I have been fortunate in that I have never really had a dream, per se, because that means you can never be disappointed when you don't achieve it. But I do remember having a conversation with my brother when I was about 16 and I said "I think I want to make graphics for computer games." To which he said "are you sure you want to sit in front of a computer in a dark room for the rest of your life?" He went on to be in post-production in film and television, so it is kind of ironic.

So I guess as early as that, middle teenage years, I had identified that this was something that I felt was a really natural end. I had sort of been an illustrator as long as I could remember. Mum has still got all these old drawers and panels of wood we used to just draw on any flat surface, my brother and I. So it was always a natural inclination for me, but I never had ambitions to be a film director or company owner or anything like that.

What were the creative career prospects like when you were growing up?

Creative career opportunities? Well it is interesting you ask that because I came from probably a demographic where it was more about going into commerce and law and that was certainly where I was pushed, both by my school, and probably not so deliberately (by my parents). My dad's very much a white collar professional. And I was probably more influenced to go into more classical careers. In terms of creative stuff, I was never really encouraged or made aware of opportunities in that field, it was just something that came naturally.

As a kid, who were your three biggest inspirations?

Star Wars, number one. There are so many To be honest I would have to say probably Ninja Turtles when I was about twelve. In the broad strokes, comic book artwork has always been very much an inspiration for me. So science fiction, predominantly Star Wars, and I'm not alone in that area, comic book artwork, and I think probably video games themselves have always inspired me.

I always liked the fact that it was a way to realise artwork and animation, but being interactive gave it a whole different perspective that cartoons and films didn't have. It was really cool that you could create this character and not just see it come to life but control it and interact with it. Sort of like the ultimate action figure: you can play with this really cool toy in the screen.

Are there any particular video games that stand out from your youth?

It might be a bit obscure, but Sega did a game called Streets of Rage I just played it til my fingers fell off. And there is no question that Street Fighter 2, which is famous, is one of my single biggest influences. But I would say all the work produced by Capcom in the late 80's and early 90's was always an inspiration. To this day Capcom is probably my favourite game producer, they always inspire me. I've played games from as young as, oh god, when the Atari 2600 came out, and then graduated to Commodore 64 and all that. Everyone in this industry kind of has the same background there, we all played the same games.

Do you think it might be a bit of a prerequisite for working in the gaming industry?

Yeah, it kind of is. Although sad to say it is dying off, because we have got all these generation Y people coming through and you start talking about Commodore 64s and they just look blankly at you. It's changing, unfortunately.

What was your first job?

My first job was completely unrelated (to gaming): I worked in a warehouse. My dad was a managing director of a wines and spirits importer, so I shifted crates of Mateus Rose and Bates Liqueur and Stolichnaya Vodka, and emptied containers and did all that sort of thing. That was when I was about 15 or 16.

But I guess my first job related to the industry (was when) I started working for a video game retailer called the Game Squad, which was a small chain which had about 4 stores across Melbourne.

Did that encourage your passion for games?

I think it confirmed what I suspected: video games, which back then were seen as one of the niche, nerd, geeky things and definitely not mainstream, were growing at a rapid rate, and getting more and more exposure in the market and more people interested in games. I was always trying to convince my dad that video games were going to be a huge industry, and that it would become legitimate eventually.

So you sensed some sort of niche in the market, some sort of gap that you might be able to fill?

Yeah, I knew it was an industry that I wanted to be involved in, but I did think at the time that being a game producer was too much to hope for, because there wasn't any structure for how to get into it. There weren't any university programs, there weren't any arts schools: there was nothing that would directly lead in. So it was all a bit of a mystery. I knew I loved the industry and wanted to be involved, and knew it would be something big one day, but there was no sort of clear route into it.

Do you think that it's still the case that there is no clear trajectory for people to follow to get into the gaming industry?

It's getting a lot better. There are dedicated universities now, like the AIE (Academy of Interactive Entertainment), which is just down on Queen's Road, and there is Qantm College. They're both institutions that are all about games development. You go in to get a degree in art production for video games or programming for video games, or design for video games. So it is much better.

I think that with all sorts of academic forums I do worry (whether) they are being taught the right things in the right way, things like preparing folios. I still see a lot of folios come across my desk that aren't being prepared and structured the right way, and that includes the right sort of content. (But) I think there is a lot of progress being made there, and at the very least I think kids can now say to their parents that they want to make video games for a living, and they can be more supported. Because people can see now that it is a multi billion dollar industry.

So it's definitely a lot better than when I was 19, 20 years old, but it still has a way to go, I guess.

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Career Development

Did you do any Uni or TAFE? If so, what & did you graduate?

I did one year of a Bachelor of Arts (at Monash in Clayton), majoring in philosophy...which I absolutely loved. I think ultimately, if a career and money wasn't important, I would have followed that through and finished it. But I remember reading a statisticand the statistic was that 65% of arts graduates are unemployed for the first three years following graduation, and I thought "this really isn't any good." And again, that was a bit of a sideline to what I really wanted to do.

I always illustrated, that was my number one passion, drawing comic books. I originally tried to get into business school to do business management at Monash, and got knocked back and ended up doing an arts degree, and these were all things to try to suppress what I really wanted to do I guess, but kind of felt that was again, too much of a fantasy, to be able to draw monsters and aliens and spaceships for a living. On the whole that did work out in the end.

How important was formal study to your career?

It was weird because I thought that if I studied anything artisticI didn't know what would be ideal. Because there were things like industrial design, which dealt with CAD design, and a lot of digital art production, but they weren't really in the spirit of video games at the time. And then you could do classical courses like illustrating, life drawing and painting, but again it wasn't in the gaming sensibility. So I wasn't really sure what to pursue in the arts sense, it was all sort of a mystery. And ultimately, I just kind of fell into it as a result of knowing some people and doing some things that came naturally and they just said "yeah, you're ideal for this."

Would you recommend that people starting out in the industry now try to get some sort of formal training before they come and approach a business for work?

I think, having had an opportunity to mature a little bit within the industry, I wish that I'd had a bit more classical training in terms of art skills. (I wish I'd) done some more life drawing and studied some classical ideas about colour composition, painting and anatomy and things like that, because those are skills now that I find I have to study more and more diligently, and take a lot more seriously.

But I would say that if anybody wants to be an artist in any field they should study classical skills because they never go out of date, they are always relevant and you always need to lean on those pillars to produce good work. So if I go back, I'd say that I would really have liked to have been taught by experts, because all my skills arelearnt from watching what other people do and trying to reverse-engineer their techniques. And it's really hard doing it that way.

Do you feel that up-skilling and self-skilling is an important part of being a practitioner in the games industry?

Typically the best people that I have worked with are people that are self taught and have put a lot of energy into teaching themselves. I think that tends to separate the really worthwhile professionals in the industry from the other ones. It's a really dynamic industry, you have got to keep pursuing skills and making sure your skills are up to date and honed otherwise you fall by the wayside.

It is an industry where the technology moves along so quickly, the tool-set moves along so quickly. I'll have to use a new tool every 18 months, there will be a new software package or a new technique or a new approach that you have to become familiar with. So if you are stagnant in that you'll lose relevance in terms of your skill set. You're maintaining your skills, being on the lookout for new techniques and new approaches. It is really important to be vigilant in this industry. I mean, I can only talk about art production.

The other thing is that there are so many clever engineers in the industry figuring out new ways to do things. Games is characterised by having a limited platform to work with, you always have limits, so one big challenge is trying to figure out how to produce the best results while keeping these limitations in mind. And that always results in new techniques and new technologies to get around those limits. So yeah, you always have to be learning new things.

How did you get your first career break?

I was working with a guy who is now one of my business partners. We were working at the Keg, he was in the kitchen and I was in the dish-pit washing dishes. He got me an illegal copy of some 3d software. And I would call him once a week at midnight while I was trying to work something out and he would give me some answers. And with his help in getting me the software and giving me some pointers, I put together a show-reel of 3d modelling and animation.

He was doing part time work at what was then Beam Software in the quality assurance department, basically testing. And after about 6 months of trying to teach myself this 3d application I invited him round, this is Toby, and showed him my video, and he said "this is fantastic, you have got to have an interview at this company." And so he spoke with a few people at the art department at Beam Software and said "I know this guy." Fortunately they had this new project coming up just around then, and I went in for an interview and a week later I was offered the job, as a production artist on 'Crush, Kill and Destroy'.

So that was absolutely my first break, and I have literally had an unbroken career in games ever since then. I'd just turned twenty at the time. So that was the end of my university. I did a year and then fortunately was gainfully employed and had no more need for university.

Do you think the decision to employ you was based mainly on your folio or your interview?

It was interesting because what I found out retrospectively was that apparently a lot of my technical skills were called into question at the interview, but it was the strength of my comic style illustration that carried me through. One of the guys there who was a senior artist, who thank god had a bit of vision, was saying "he might not be an expert in 3d, but look at what he has done through his own initiative. Plus he has got these classical skills which show that artistically he is going to get there eventually."

I think more than anything it is the work they look at. I think the games industry has a very wide spectrum of personality types, so often you have to accept that people might be a little unconventional, a little bit quirky, or even a little bit antisocial. But if their work is really good, and you can find a way to make them work in your team, then I guess sometimes you have to decide what's more important.

I like to think that meeting me in person had an effect, but who knows!

What were the three most significant evolutions/changes in your working life?

I think that the first one was my first break, and that was when I had my eyes opened to the level that other professionals were at. And I was aware that the jump from being an enthusiast or an amateur, or even a student...the difference between that and seeing how real professionals work was massive. And that inspired me to take more responsibility about what I did.

The next big break or big turning point was when I went to England in Oxford for a few years with a company on a 'Crash Bandicoot' game. That was the first time I was officially given the role as art director, and that was my first opportunity to learn how to manage a teamYou're dealing with art production and you've got 11 staff under youart is a pretty personal thing and everyone will tailor that to their own sensibilities. And that was a real challenge, trying to figure out how to unify an artistic vision. Which I'm not suggesting I was necessarily able to do, but (I was able to start) thinking about how you do that, how you manage lots of different personalities and artistic influences and try to make something look consistent across the board. And that was probably my first real experience of being a senior art manager.

And I guess coming here and being a business owner, that is a whole other thing, because suddenly you see everything from the other side. You see all the things you used to complain about...from a different perspective and you understand why there are problems. As a production artist I think you are constantly hitting way-points in your career and learning new things. I guess one of the bigger things that I try to impart to juniors working now is the idea of patience and discipline. I think it is very easy to want to achieve great results quickly with not a lot of work. It's very glamorous, you see a lot of incredibly talented artists. But...if I could speak to a lot of students who send their folio through, (I would want to) impart that idea that (the important thing) is patience and discipline. Producing great work simply takes a lot of time and a lot of study and a lot of personal discipline to see something through to the end. And maybe that is something that only comes with being a professional artist.

Did anything jeopardise your career in its early stages?

I wish I could say something controversial or dramatic, but no. I'm very lucky. I think my career to date has been very smooth. And fortunately I used to dabble in computer programming when I was young, and I think I benefited from having an inclination toward technical things. This is an industry where if you can manage to merge a technical perspective on production with a creative, artistic side, you are in really good stead because what we do is always a half-way house between the two. So I think having that disposition at the start has just stood me in really good stead. I always seem to adapt well to projects and have fortunately been given more responsibility at quite a steady rate. It has all sort of worked out.

I guess if there was one I could probably say about the industry at large...the industry imposes a lot of challenges on people because it is still young and it still has very shoddy work practices at a lot of studios and so it can involve very long hours, very poor management and very poor scheduling and deadlines. I have friends and colleagues at studios everywhere in the world, and that is always a complaint. And I have seen that it does push people out of the industry, because they'll say "as much as I'm passionate about it and love it, I'm going to work for a bank or an IT company because the hours are regular, the pay is better, and I've got my social/ personal life and I can enjoy that." Whereas in games sometimes it does demand a lot of you to be committed, above and beyond the call of duty. So if ever there was one thing I think that has given me pause for thought it would be that. You sort of think "this organization is being run so badly, I don't know that I want to constantly sacrifice my own energy and all that for the sake of something that could be done a lot better." But you know, that's what leads you to start your own company, and here we are.

What was the best piece of professional advice you received in the early stages of your career?

That's really tough. I'm not sure that I was ever given a particularly potent bit of advice, but there were times when I have been taken under the wing of more senior people. If I could try to come up with a philosophy I could say that making a concerted effort to learn from people who were senior and more experienced was incredibly beneficial. I mean, everyone knows that you get a lot of young people who come into jobs and think they know everything, it's a clich but it happens to be true a lot of the time and that's really sad. Because I think learning from people who have been there and done that before, learning their tricks and their methods was something that I was always quite determined to do. Not to let my ego rule my attitude to my own work, and to let other people say "you know, there's a better way to do this," or "have you tried this technique?"

So I was lucky. There are probably two or three people off the top of my head who had a really profound effect on my skill sets, and my development as a production artist in games. So just learning from people who know more than you I think is just something that you really need to embrace. There is always someone in the room who is better than you or knows more than you do, there is no getting around that, so take advantage of it.

If you could thank anyone from your professional past, who would it be and what would you say to them?

I don't want to offend people that have helped me out. But there is one guy who always leaps to mind, a guy by the name of Adam Ryan who works at Animal Logic, which you've probably heard of. He taught me some great practical techniques: he was the first person to teach me how to do facial animation on a character, and how to set them up to deliver dialogue, and things to remember and consider when you are doing that...But probably more than anything he taught me the idea of aspiring to standards far beyond what you can see in your own mind.

I used to do this thing where I'd be working on this artwork, and I'd reach a point where I'd say to myself "now what would Adam do at this point?" Because he wouldn't stop here, he would go on and do some research. If
he was making a monster or spaceship or something he'd get all the information available, he would look at the best examples of the work, and he would push himself and keep pushing until he was as good as that. So more than anything he taught me to never be satisfied with what you think is good.

Subject your work to the most severe criticism possible and the highest standards, and don't ever be satisfied just because you think it's good...but look at the world and the industry standard and measure yourself against that, not just the other people you work with or what you've done in the past. Don't say "well it's better than the last thing I did." That's not enough. Is it better than...what they are doing at Pixar? That's where you set your standards.

And again, it is something I find a lot of graduates don't do. They are comparing their work to their classmates, or what their tutor has done, and that's not going to get you anywhere. You need to look at the industry out in the world.

If I could take one person it would definitely be Adam because he taught me that: high standards, aspire for the best.

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Now

How would you briefly describe your role? What are your responsibilities?

It's a small company so as much as my role is art director, that is a little bit of a misnomer. Because here the three partners are all games designers, we are all personnel managers, we do all sorts of things, but principally my role is to manage the execution and delivery of any and all artwork required for projects.

I do get involved in games design issues, like how the game is going to functionthat's more stuff that we negotiate as a group, but strictly speaking the art stuff is my domain. So if the art doesn't look good and it's not delivered on time they come after me.

What are the best and worst aspects of your job?

The best aspect of my job is that I have no one to answer to: I don't have to satisfy someone else's agenda or somebody else's vision. My two partners (and I) always communicate about everything, and everything is a compromise between what we all want, which is good.

I guess ultimately you are responsible for yourself, so if you fail or succeed you get to enjoy that and suffer by that. But all the hard work and effort and energy you put in, you can benefit from that directly. We're all doing it for the benefit of ourselves, and no longer doing it for somebody else who just arbitrarily seems to lord it over you.

(We are now) able to do things the way we have always wanted to do them. I mean, we have had a couple of production exercises which have run smoother than anything I have ever worked on in other studios because we try to take scheduling and timing and resource management seriously and we try to do it the right way. I think if you start a company and you don't do it to correct all the mistakes that you have seen made before then there is no point in doing it. If you are going to do it the same way everyone else has done it then why bother?

So the best aspect is having that responsibility and accountability and doing it all your own way.

And the worst aspects, there aren't many. I guess you are responsible for other people and their income, wellbeing and professional success, so that is a big responsibility there. But again the upside of that is that you get an opportunity to make people's working life enjoyable, and you can make sure they are getting the skills they need and the support they need to develop into the right sort of professional. So there is also an upside to that.

I guess if suddenly we ran out of contracts and had no money and we were all out on the street, then I could tell you what the downside was. But until that happens it's really all pretty good!

What are three essential attributes someone in your position needs?

You need a lot of initiative. You need to do things before there is a need for them or before you are asked. I think initiative is really important, especially because it's a changing landscape technologically, you have to try to anticipate things that are going to be there in 6 months or a year's time. So when we are say, developing methodologies for producing art, we have to think is this scalable, is this going to work not just on the current technology but when the technology gets better and changes and we have less limitations. So initiative across the board, not just in day to day work but in trying to future-proof what you do and how you go about trying to do things.

I think you have to be a good communicator. And I think this is something our managing director Tony is very good at, not just communicating about work and getting across what you need done, your message, but trying to anticipate what your staff need and how to get them to tell you what they need. To communicate on a personal level as well. Someone who works for you, they are not just a robot who is there to do work, they need to feel supported and encouraged and all those sorts of things. So I think communication on all those levels is really important.

Again, getting back to that thing about the melding of technical and creative. I think as an art director in video games development...I mean someone from film and television might say "oh, it's just the same for us," but I think you have to understand the technical side of your job as much as the creative side. Someone in video games who just does artwork and washes their hands and says "well, this is what it needs to look like," and then just walks away, well that's no good. You need to work in consultation with the technical staff to make sure your vision is possible to achieve, and that it's not going to put unfair demands on an engineering group, for example. So you need to be able to understand it. The art is one thing, but what it is doing under the hood, technically, in the background, is every bit as important.

What sort of creative projects are you involved in outside your job?

My brother, having worked in post production film and television work, and I have started making, I shudder to use the word, but let's say fan films...we are about to start shooting episode two of Suburban Knights (suburbanknights.com). So the fan filmmaking on the side is a lot of fun. But you've just reminded me of something I probably should have mentioned before, and something which again separates really good people in this industry, that's leading into saying I'm good, I didn't mean to do that!

But I do a lot of drawing still, I do a lot of creative stuff which is not directly related to work, and that is something that I try to encourage our guys to do. I don't really do that much of it at the moment, but again there is always a lot of work which needs to be done so it is hard to find the time and energy. But I also do just do a lot of drawing and 3d modelling in my own time, because it keeps reminding you why you got into the industry in the first place. A lot of the time doing work in a production cycle, you are less concerned with satisfying your artistic needs and creative needs and more just getting the job done and making sure that the quality is there and that the client is happy.

That's one thing, but for example, we could be working on a game where it is a car racing game, and in terms of my personal tastes, that doesn't interest me at all, I'm not interested in cars, I don't really like racing games. There's nothing in there for me creatively, so you've got to make sure you do something on the side that satisfies you. So that's something I do on the side, just draw and model and try to make cool stuff that makes me happy.

I suppose it is also important that when you come back to work you can bring that creative invigoration back in?

Yeah, absolutely. And it is amazing how many times you will discover something in terms of technique or a method in your own time that you can bring back into work. Because you might not be working on something that demands that, but then a project comes up and "oh, you know what, I was making this character and figured out this is a really good way to do it," and it sort of comes full circle. It is sort of like you are in research and development on the side.

If you, in your position now, were interviewing your younger self back at your first professional job interview, would you have given yourself a job? Why / why not?

Yes. I would have said "this kid rocks!" No, I think I also would have looked at all the comic book drawings and not been distracted by any lack of technical expertise. Getting back to the comment I made before about classical skills being really important, I think the industry went through a phase (where) everyone was looking at the skill set, saying "well, can they use Maya, can they use Softimage? How are their Photoshop skills?" And they were very much distracted by understanding software packages, and that's got nothing to do with you being an artist. I mean, anyone who is a talented illustrator, or even sculptor, animator, whatever, they can learn the software package in two or three weeks, it is not a big deal. It is just a tool: it's just a chisel, right?

So I would like to think that I would have looked at not just my drawings but what I was drawing, what my influences and sensibilities were. I remember there were samurais and ninjas and space soldiers and all that stuff. And video games are still largely made up of those archetypes. So you need to be someone who lives and breathes that world, who loves sci fi and comics and animation.

I like to think I would have given myself the job, or I might have just looked at the folio and said "that's ridiculous and crummy, get out of here!" Because when I'm looking at folios today I always think "how does this measure against the quality my work was at when I was 20?" And I usually keep myself honest but it's hard to do sometimes, it is hard to look at something and say "yeah that is pretty crappy but I can see the potential in it."

What do the next 12 months hold for you?

In terms of the company, most of the work we do at the moment is mobile games development, and that has provided a lot of stability, which is good for everyone. But we recently attended a trade show and are trying to branch out into doing some online for Xbox and Playstation 3 downloadable content. And we've done a console game demo in the past that we still believe in and are still trying to push, and we've had some recent interest in that. So with any luck in the next 12 months we'll be doing not only mobile but we'll be doing a couple of other console games as well. We'll see, it is looking good at the moment but it is always hard to tell.

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Overall

What drives you?

Success of the company is really important, because that is to do with my own long-term wealth and security and life, and that is really what everybody wants. We work hard here to produce the best quality of work we can so clients are never dissatisfied and hopefully our reputation continues to grow and our company will grow and be successful as a result of that. So there is a whole professional side where you want to see everything succeed because this is your livelihood, being a company owner it is very real, you have a very real contact with that sort of success.

But personally, I think the older I get I'm really driven by trying to be the best artist I can be. And that has definitely changed over the course of my career to date. When I was younger I didn't have the same philosophy about it as I do now...It's nice, the older you get, you sort of discover that you are really committed to the skills that you have. I have no illusions about my skills as an artist, there are many people much better at what they do than I am, but I do believe in making the most of what you've gotI don't see any reason why I shouldn't capitalise on them as much as possible.

I look at a lot of illustrators today, look at a lot of animation, a lot of modeling, and just try to learn from the best of the best. There are a lot of (games) companies in the world that are doing extraordinary work, work that rivals film in terms of the quality that they are outputting. I want to be as good as those guys. And I think all artists, if you scratch the surface, we are all probably driven by a bit of ego, underneath. We all want to be as good as we can be and proud of our work. So that definitely drives me these days, quite a bit.

Who is your biggest inspiration now?

Alex Ross continues to be one of my biggest influences, he's a comic book illustrator who became quite famous years ago because of his unique approach. He produces very painted, very classical styles. He uses a lot of life models, and he produces very real images. His work on Superman has always been astounding. He brings a kind of reality and weight, presence and maturity to the characters, and sophistication I guess. Thank god comic book art has become much broader now in terms of the styles that are accepted within it.

You get that really angry teenage sort of stuff that Todd McFarlane is famous for creating, which is a very hyper stylised, impressionist view of characters. And I think in a lot of ways some people see that as lacking a bit of depth, whereas Alex Ross brought a sort of sophistication and subtlety to the medium that I really like, because to me it is a very worthy art form. Comic book artwork has been much maligned for many bad reasons, and I think it deserves a place in the fine art world really, and (Alex Ross) is a guy who is driving a lot of progress in that world. And if I could ever be even remotely on par with him in terms of the quality of work he produces, I would be very satisfied I think.

What is your proudest achievement?

I'm sorry to say that...up until starting this company there wasn't any game that I'd worked on that I could say that I was really proud of. They were all a bit shoddy, to be honest, and of course you can't take complete responsibility because the game's development is the result of 15, 20, 40 people's work. But you want to walk away from it and have something you are really proud of.

So the best thing has been starting a company and producing work and suddenly getting really good reviews for the work. Like the mobile games we have produced have all been well received critically, and that's been great to make that transition, to suddenly have games out in the world and go "yep, I'm really proud of that." And I'll show somebody and go "yeah, this is good." And I'm not just toeing a company line and saying it just because I worked on it, it is genuinely something to be proud of. And yeah, they are mobile games, and yeah, they are scaled down from console games, but I think it is something that we can in all honesty be proud of doing.

Is there anything you wish you'd done differently in your career?

Sometimes I look back on when I was developing my 3d skills early on, and I think I wish I'd looked more outwardly, and that instead of just wrestling with the "how to," to look more at what people were doing at the time. But I guess it is kind of hard...back then Pixar was very early in its inception and Toy Story might not have even come out, so it is kind of hard to remember that era, but I think more than anything if I had measured myself a bit more against the industry at large my work would have been better from day one, and maybe I'd be better now.

It was hard because there wasn't really a framework or an institution of learning in any way. But in terms of career decisions I can't really think of anything in terms of "oh, I should have taken that job," or left a job. I think I've been lucky that it has all fallen into place quite nicely. It has been 12 years since I got my first job and now I'm lucky enough to share a company with two other guys. So I think on the surface it looks pretty good.

What's the dumbest thing you've been paid to do?

Play in a band. I was in a band for about 18 months and I couldn't believe it when they actually paid me. Because if they'd said "just turn up for free," I would have done it without any hesitation.

I didn't have that many 'stupid-jo' jobs when I was a kid: washing dishes was pretty annoying.

What advice would you give eager beavers keen to make it in your industry?

Commit to having patience and discipline in what you do. Really take it seriously and constantly be your own critic. Never be complacent about the quality of work you do or have illusions about it because your tutor or your best mate in class says it is awesome. There is a big wide world full of incredibly talented people out there, and they are the ones who you have to measure yourself against. So have high standards and have patience and discipline. And be prepared to learn from other people, and be prepared to have your work criticised, and don't be precious about it.

That is something that probably comes with a bit of age. It seems really simple now, being early 30's and in this role as opposed to be early 20's. But if someone criticises your work, then that is part of the journey to your work getting better. It's not about just bashing someone. So take on as much critiquing and as much knowledge and expertise as you possibly can, because it will only make you better.

If you could have a coffee with anyone at all this arvo, who would it be?

Can I name a few? Bono would be one, Johnny Depp would be another one. Richard Dawkins, without a doubt, these days, I would probably talk him to death.

I'm sure I should have said something like "Isaac Newton," or "Albert Einstein."

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