Did you do any Uni or TAFE?
I've been to every uni in Australia. I did media arts at Deakin for a year, then transferred to RMIT and did media studies there, and then went to Canada and did film and sound production for a year. Then I came back, did an honours in English literature at Melbourne University. I have also enrolled in a masters program in philosophy at RMIT, while completing my undergraduate, and got in because I was good friends with the head of department. But I had to quit that because I couldn't afford the fees. And then I started a masters in politics at Melbourne University. My thesis was reality television and ethnicity, and I did that for about 8 months. I did a lot of research but then just took on too much work and couldn't do anymore.
So how many of these did you complete?
RMIT and Melbourne University, so the media studies and the honours. All the rest are sitting there waiting.
So you would recommend to people starting out in digital content that they should go out and get a university degree or a tafe qualification?
Yeah. I wouldn't hire anyone if they don't have a degree, unless we're desperate. It stands out on a resume.
What do you think it shows apart from the direct skills that they have learnt?
It shows an ability to work with other people; ability to write, because most people are really average writers in Australia, and you get that through academic study; ability to research. A lot of the time it's about a bit of an understanding of bureaucracy, so working in an institution you get an understanding of how things are slow and you understand that frustration. If you don't then it can be a problem.
How did you get your first career break?
It was a really lame job. I got a job working for the National Ethnic and Multicultural Broadcasters Council. That is a peak body for ethnic broadcasting in Australia.
What were you doing in that job?
I was the National Youth Coordinator, getting young people involved in ethnic community broadcasting across Australia, and developing strategies. I left there with a smoking gun.
Why this industry? Why digital media?
Partly by choice and by doing media. I suppose that all media is digital media now so there is no such thing as digital media. All media is media. It is a new industry. It's not like going into advertising, which has been established for 50 years, or telecommunications. You can carve out a space and it is flexible. Experience is only good for 6 months in this industry. You constantly have to be evolving and changing, therefore anyone can start out and get some knowledge very rapidly and become and expert.
Do you find keeping ahead in the industry is a continual process of up-skilling and how do you go about that?
Just by reading and networking and meeting people, staying in touch. That is all it really is. Going to conferences and industry events. It's a small community in Australia, so getting to know everyone. And it's a small community overseas as well, surprisingly. I mean, in the United States it's still small and you can still meet everyone if you go to a conference.
What were the three most significant evolutions/changes in your working life?
The first was moving into unpaid work, volunteering, which I think is the most important stage of all. Through that you learn to work for a sense of duty, rather than working for money. And because people commonly make the mistake that if you go and volunteer somewhere, and you make no money, then there is no payment. And it's a really dumb assumption because you are getting payment, through the experience you gain and the networks you get. So it's a really bad attitude to have. So when you can start working and volunteering and treat your unpaid job exactly the same as you would treat your real job, then you have a level of professionalism that is ready to move.
That's what I did. Before I got full time paid work I volunteered for a year, setting up SYN (Student Youth Network), and I would go into the office every day. I would be there at 8:30 in the morning and I'd be the last person to leave. And I would treat that job as seriously as any other part time job I've had. And that was basically the first stage.
The second was obviously moving into full time paid work, and learning the politics of working with other people; pay; how to get what you want; and all those basic professional things.
And then the next stage was moving into self-employment and doing more entrepreneurial pursuits. Which is an utterly different level of understanding where you cease being an employee and you become an employer; you have to set a vision for people; you have to balance budgets and expectations and clients and be quite tolerant.
What are some of the most major mistakes people might make when they are starting out with the aim to be entrepreneurial and set up their own business?
Doing it cheaply is a dumb way of doing it, or trying to get people to back you and not using your own money. I think you should instantly back yourself if you are going to go for an idea. If you come to me with this idea and say I want to do this, it's going to be awesome, I'd ask how are you funding it, how much money do you have on the line? If you have confidence in your idea then you put something toward it, not just your time.
There is this adage for start-ups that goes hire late, fire early. And I disagree with that, I think you should hire as soon as possible and give people a chance to grow and see where they go. People evolve, and you are setting yourself up for growth in that way.
One is also doing it alone. Don't do it alone: that is the dumbest way to start something significant. Because you are not really doing it alone. If you want to start a business then the people that are being impacted upon are your wife or your husband or family, and they put up with all the problems and you become a maniac. Find a business partner or someone to work with.
And don't give away equity in your business straight up. Try to hang onto it really early.
What was the best piece of professional advice you received in the early stages of your career?
Oh god, there has been so much good advice...everyone gives you advice. If you are at a barbecue some 40 year old will come up to you and be like oh, are you running a business? What you really need to do is this, this, this, this or this. I think I remember more of the stupid advice. Like the other day someone said, what you really need to do is, if you have a designer, you've got to hire the best designer there is, in your company. Like, you've got to have the best designer. That's the problem. And I go, well, yeah, nice one, thanks dude. Like, I actively hire shit designers. It just showed a lack of understanding: obviously resources are a problem, you can't always hire the best designer. You can't always hire the best staff, use the best technology or plan for the unknown - you have to make do.
It's really hard because we have always just gone on our instincts and run with it the whole time. And there is never a right or a wrong way of doing things. You just have to make mistakes. You have to allow yourself to make enough mistakes, otherwise it's not really fun, I suppose.
If you could thank anyone from your professional past, who would it be and what would you say to them?
For me it's just my father, for pretty much letting me and my brothers run wild when we were little. My entrepreneurial spirit, I have decided, has grown from two things. One is growing up in an environment where 3 boys were let completely loose in the hills in Kangaroo Ground. We would make up our own adventures, games, do whatever we wanted. We were really strong and everything would be an argument so we would have to fight for what we wanted. So I think that is really important.
What do you think helped foster your entrepreneurial spirit?
A lot of my ability and strength to do what I do now has come out of the experience of doing quite a lot of hitchhiking when I was in my early twenties. With hitchhiking you have an end point and you have a start, and you start on the journey, but you don't know how you are going to get to the point. And you just walk and you'll be putting your thumb on the road. And you'll get a ride and the person might be fricken dangerous, you might get a ride and the person might be awesome and you'll only get so far. And you'll get all these little pieces that take you along the way, and you might get stranded somewhere for a while. When you're out on the road there is this whole sense that anything could be possible. And you have to go with it and just feel it and have in your head the sense and the vision that you will get there.
And for me it is exactly the same journey as running a business. You have a vision, you know where you want to go, you don't really know the trajectory, so you just go anyway. You just do it. And you push, and you'll get some people who will help you along the way, you'll get some people who will fuck you up along the way, but at the end of the day it's that knowledge inside you that you will get there.
I did that with my brother David and my friend Sam, actually a whole group of my friends, we all hitched. We were reading Dharma Bums and On the Road when we were living in the United States in 2000. And that's when we all started to hitchhike. We all broke up and hitchhiked across the states in different teams, and it was very inspiring.